Interview questions and notes by Gaia Rosenberg Colorni (Independent Evaluator and Researcher)
Interview 1: with interviewee Gareth Churchill (commissioned artist 1)
1. Developing your practice - ‘before’ and ‘after’ snapshot:
Q: For starters, could you briefly explain to me what you were doing before the commissions programme started, and what have you been up to since? Has anything changed as a result of the programme?
A: I'm a composer and a collaborative artist. I work in a really wide variety of contexts, which broadly speaking you could call ‘music theatre’, and which can range from a solo song to a small scale chamber opera. I almost always work with a community, or possibly an institution. The words in my work always come from the lived experience of others, or are perhaps open sourced from bits of text on a particular subject, as was the case in this project.
I’ve been a DAC member for a couple of years or so now. I also did a much smaller project with them before (in 2021, I think). It was done in some sort of lockdown period, and only involved one musician (myself), and it was a kind of remote thing. I ended up just recording it all at home myself, and it’s a spoken word and piano piece I created. Because I felt like that was well supported at the time, I think yeah, it helped to establish a kind of ‘track record’ with DAC: knowing that they were nice to work with, that everyone there was professional, and access in particular was a priority.
Before this commission, I've done three or four projects as a lead artist, all of them in Wales. Although, they've kind of reached beyond Wales a little in terms of the musicians I employed, through my connections as a member of the Paraorchestra - making work that’s accessible to musicians who identify as disabled is a really important part of my practice.
I had a commission from Unlimited in 2021. Unlimited, as you perhaps know, is a leading commissioner of disabled artists and disability led arts projects, and I was really fortunate to have a small research and development project commissioned from them. And as part of that, I did a series of online Zoom workshops with the Wellcome Collection, and came to know of things that I previously didn't even know existed. I also went to London and spent the day at Wellcome Collection, and I actually met one of the people I've spoken to on Zoom there in person - and this was just post-pandemic, so we were all masked, and it felt very kind of uncertain, but this man showed me things related to my own history of being disabled, including texts about similar brain injuries to mine. Lots of doctors have told me I’ve had a brain injury, but they didn't exactly tell me anything more specific than that, like which part of my brain had been affected. So being able to further explore this in a library was, for me, a really fascinating thing.
I immediately saw the potential for a piece there. And when this commission was advertised through DAC, I saw an opportunity for a natural development, to revisit the Wellcome Collection. I was delighted when I was selected, and I'm sure the competition was stiff.
When this project was advertised, I hoped it would be an opportunity to work outside of Wales for the first time, and I was pleased to be able to work in England through this project. Admittedly, England is not the most ‘international place’ and so initially I was thinking about other contacts I hold in other countries like France, that I could approach about this project - but organising something further afield proved challenging at this stage. I was offered a smaller budget than what I pitched at the start, and I thought that might be tight (especially because going to London can be expensive) but actually, it worked out. I was pleasantly surprised.
And then, I suppose actually everything in the commission went according to plan. I literally finished yesterday, I received the final video from the videographer yesterday. I’ve sent this to DAC, and due to hear Becca’s feedback about the work soon. I’m pleased that the piece I developed is everything I set out, and I'm delighted with the musicians who I’ve worked with. I shared the final video with the musicians yesterday, one of them has written back this morning to say they think they're really pleased with it, too.
The only thing I didn't do that I outlined in my original application was working with the National Institute for Neurology and Neurosurgery, which is the hospital I was a patient in 25 years ago. I thought it would be interesting from a lived experience perspective, to look at records about myself as a patient, and what the doctors wrote about me while I was there. I did contact them, but because so much has changed at the hospital - including their record keeping systems now being digital - it wasn’t possible to retrieve the information that I was looking for, without investing a lot more time and money in this research, which I hadn’t budgeted for. So that didn't happen, but apart from that, I think the project was exactly as intended.
2. Professional opportunities:
Q: Did taking part in the commissions programme open up new opportunities for you?
A: I'm personally delighted with the finished product. In a way, I think it’s given me a real showcase of what my work is, in a more personal way than ever before. And because it's such a personal topic for me, I hope I'll be able to use it. I'm very happy to share it publicly now, I hope it'll go on my website too. It's a real kind of showpiece and it’s very autobiographical, so in terms of my career development, I really hope it becomes a kind of ‘signature’. And it's a bit cutting edge - as it's about brain surgery, there's a bit within the film where instead of the oboe, there’s the sound of a power drill instead to simulate the sound of surgery, which I hope might draw some attention to it.
The project has also given me confidence to look further afield geographically. Now, if I saw appropriate opportunities outside of Wales, I would probably bid for them, in a way that I might not have before. I've now worked outside of Wales in a fully professional capacity where I was responsible for booking the musicians, sorting out all the tech arrangements, liaising with the venue and managing people and other logistics. It's the first time I've done anything outside of Wales, and even though it's still within Britain, I think this was an appropriate first step actually - because if I can't successfully manage projects in London, or Edinburgh, or Dublin, what are the chances of me being able to successfully manage them elsewhere? Whereas now, I'd have the confidence to try and run something in Europe, like Italy, France, Spain, or similar. I would still hesitate at the moment to go further afield to places like Asia, in a culture where I have little understanding. I definitely think and hope that this has been a stepping stone towards internationalising my profile, and raising my profile more generally.
3. Programme organisation and access:
Q: Was the programme well-run and well managed by the project organisers? (ie DAC and Arts Council Wales). Did you feel that a safe, inclusive and accessible space was appropriately provided for you by the project organisers to explore your practice as an artist? Why or why not?
A: Yes, I think it was. I felt safe and I felt like it was completely accessible for me. I felt like all that was really well handled.
Because I've done most of my work as an independent artist, I've applied to Arts Council myself, and was successful, so in the past I've managed everything myself. When I was told there was going to be a Producer for this project, I was a bit surprised because I hadn't had that before. But actually, I found my interactions with Becca were really useful. And it kind of gave me a good structure and a kind of sub-timeline for the project that I also found useful to keep me on track.
Something else I was surprised about was that I really enjoyed the Work in Progress event at Chapter. I've never done something like that before, and as a composer, it felt like it was a strange thing to do. Knowing the event was coming up, I wondered what I was going to do for that, because I couldn’t bring the performance from London to do a rehearsal or something like that - which would have been a really lovely thing to do, but I didn't have the budget to bring the musicians to do it.
So, I shared my handwritten manuscript paper - because I'm old fashioned, I still use that, and put this up on a board at Chapter, so that the audience could look at the work in progress. I also made the computer simulation available, sort of like an electronic performance for people to listen to at the event. And, just sharing these pieces, and being on hand to discuss things with people, including Arts Council, was a valuable experience in itself. Actually, the person who I spoke to from the Arts Council asked if she could take some of my manuscript away, which I thought was really sweet of her, so I said yes.
There were also two workshop events along the way, as well. I found both of those really useful. I think one was with Ellie from Unlimited and Jonny, who’s a friend of mine and a really wonderful artist in his own right, about looking beyond Wales. And then there was one about showing your work in unusual, non-traditional spaces. And I really enjoyed listening to that, though (a bit like the Work in Progress event), I couldn't directly see how that might relate to my own work as an artist at first.
Having said that, coming out of the Work in Progress event and thinking of my work as sort of graphic art, in addition to a sort of audio-visual product - now, looking back I can see how that workshop related to my work. Which I think is probably a learning for the project: that perhaps just sharing sketch work is a part of the process, and is an interesting thing creatively in its own right.
Something else I really valued was the chance to meet the other artists at that event, I thought that that was really rewarding. And at the end of it, there was kind of a really nice moment in Chapter Arts Centre, which is literally on the road behind where I live, so I know the area very well. Because I knew the place, and we were there on a Monday for the sharing, I knew that there was going to be an Indian street food pop up in the evening which happens on Mondays, so we all went there and had that, which was lovely.
In terms of the application process, I remember I went to an information event on Zoom, before I applied; that was really useful. These kinds of things have started existing since Covid and are very useful, particularly for me as somebody with a visual impairment because, you know, just listening to a screen reader, you don't get everything properly. So I found the Zoom info session very helpful. I think it was probably only after that I decided, “OK, yes, I will apply for this”.
In terms of suggestions for improvements, a better understanding of the time gap between sending an invoice and receiving the funds would be useful. Because at the moment, I haven't had the last part of my budget yet, so I haven't been able to pay everyone yet. But I’ve just sent the last invoice a few days ago, and none of the invoices I have to pay are overdue, and Becca said she’s passed this on to Sue - so I’m sure it’ll be fine and that it will be paid soon. It’s just that if I knew that it would be a week’s wait, I would have set myself the target of getting it all in a week earlier, or such.
4. Suggestions for improvement and the future of Wales in Venice:
Context: Part of this evaluation is to help the project organisers think much more widely about their artist commissions and development programmes in the future (not to necessarily replicate the same format as the programme you took part in). One of the aims of Wales in Venice is: “Create an international platform for the visual arts that represents a diverse and forward-looking Wales”.
Q: We are particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on what future developments of Wales in Venice programmes may look like, and how the organisations involved (ACW, DAC, Artes Mundi) should approach working with artists in Wales, as well as international audiences, in the future. With this in mind, do you have any wider insights, questions, or recommendations on this subject that you’d like to reflect on?
A: For me, this commission has resulted in a kind of completely viable piece of work, which through a screen could be exhibited in a gallery context as a visual work, because the visual part of it is as important as the sound part of it. I think it's got appropriate slides for commissioning and logos and everything in it. So if this work was, for example, to be somehow exhibited in some future representation of Wales in Venice, that would undoubtedly mark an international step forward in my profile. It'd be the first time that something like that happens for me, and it would take my work to a new, wider audience.
I think I’ve worked to ensure the work is as accessible as it can be. I got it fully captioned, because opera singers are sometimes not the easiest people to understand when they're singing and lip reading a singer is a challenge. Although, Joanne who sings for me on this does have extremely good diction - so I think the words are probably all quite audible, but they are captioned anyway. So I think it's a completely accessible package, which, if it were to be shown in Venice or anywhere internationally, has the potential to draw new audiences and really deliver on my ambition to internationalise my work. Unusually for me, because the project was in London this time it doesn’t feature the Welsh language. The Welsh language is a part of my heritage, so it's an important part of my practice as an artist. I did try putting everything I could in the search engine there (at Wellcome) in Welsh, and there is a bit of Latin in the piece, because some of the medical text was in Latin.
Before this project, I did a project where I was one of six Welsh artists and we all went to Lisbon for something called WOMEX (Worldwide Music Expo). That was supported by Wales Arts International, and over the course of that, I got to have a chat with the head of that department, and she said “you can apply three times a year”, or something like that - but you know, I didn't even know there was potentially funding available to support me going to France, or wherever, to do some R&D there. Knowing such things are possible in the first place is important and helpful. Now, I think, when I'm trying to set up small projects myself, I think I'll start trying to look further afield, because I’ve now got a possibility to say “look, this is the sort of work I do”, and I’ve got a stronger connection with DAC. And I will be able to send a link to Trepanator, or historic work, and that will be wonderful.
I think with DAC, and other organisations like DAC, it would be interesting to make more connections, partnerships, and grow the sector together, as well as working to build public awareness. I feel like they've all got the potential to spark new work, and in turn to support professional disabled artists’ growth, because we’re so hidden in society. I did a workshop recently for National Youth Arts Wales, and one of the big outcomes of that was highlighting that there just aren’t disabled role models for young people. Therefore, building networks is crucial to expanding that profile.
I would also hope that there might be possible partnerships that I could explore initially by email, connecting with organisations similar to DAC and Unlimited in Europe (if they exist). That's the real ambition, to continue doing the sort of work I do but further afield, and with more diverse groups of more marginalised people. It would be interesting to reach audiences who might relate in some way, or be interested in, my own autobiography and lived experience; because a lot of my work deals with disability or LGBTQ+ lived experience.
I'm also part of the Paraorchestra, and the Paraorchestra did a show in Cardiff (I think it was around 2018). I wasn’t directly involved in the show, but I was given a complimentary ticket to that, and through this event I met the former DAC Director; I’d never heard of DAC before, that’s when I first learned about it. (I haven’t met the new DAC Director in person yet, I think I met him a few years ago in a Zoom meeting, but I hope that day will come.)
When I told the Paraorchestra musicians in London who I worked with on this project, that the project was being funded by DAC they said “Oh, I haven't heard of them. Who are they?” And, I got the sense that there was interest in DAC’s work from those musicians as well.
I do some work in the university here as well; and, as a university student myself in the past, I feel like if I'd known DAC existed when I was a student, I would have joined then and I might have been able to become ‘fully professional’ sooner than I did. I feel like there could be connections with The University, The College of Music and Drama, and there's several other universities in Cardiff and Wales where I feel I would personally be well placed to provide an informal bridge between DAC and the University in Cardiff in particular (because I work there). I can actually think of two students in the Music School who identify as disabled currently, that could benefit from such an exchange, and I’m sure there would be more. So, it’s just an observation that perhaps connections with the university, the College of Music and Drama, from a marketing point of view, or connections with other groups like the Paraorchestra, might be something worth DAC exploring.
5. Anything else?
Q: Is there anything else I haven’t asked that you would like to talk about?
A: No, I think we've covered everything. I made a few notes earlier, and we've gone over everything I thought I would mention. I think we have covered everything I wanted to talk about, because the process was so well crafted, thank you. I'll make a note of any more thoughts I may have as well.
(end of interview 1)
Interview 2: with interviewee Tessa Gray (commissioned artist 2)
1. Developing your practice - ‘before’ and ‘after’ snapshot:
Q: For starters, could you briefly explain to me what you were doing before the commissions programme started, and what have you been up to since? Has anything changed as a result of the programme?
A: You mentioned earlier reading my initial proposal, but you should know that in the process of applying for the commission and getting the commission, my proposal changed quite drastically, as I originally applied for a higher amount of funding and a slightly different project.The commission board then gave me some feedback and a revised offer, which informed the next iteration of the work. Originally, I wanted to work with animation, but the board commented that they were interested in my painting work, so that became the focus for this project.
I was already doing a lot of painting in my practice already. And I'd been showing as often as I could: in self directed projects, I had received a commission that year to do a series of paintings for a show in Cardiff, and in 2021, I also had a grant to do a solo show, following on from winning the peoples vote prize at Beep Painting Biennial.
So the last few years have been getting a bit of momentum, just picking up opportunities showing as often as possible. By the time I applied for this, because I’d been quite busy I was a little exhausted from the year, but I saw the Wales in Venice opportunity and I thought, “I can’t not apply for this”. I already knew what work I was going to be doing independently, so I thought I’d write the proposal based on what I hoped to be doing in my own time anyway. So that's where I was at.
The commission board said that they liked the idea and the themes of my project, but that they were splitting up the funding into some smaller sections. So on the revised budget, I didn't think that I could go to Berlin and do the work that I want to do there. I didn't want to do it in a minimised way, so I thought, I’ll just make something different. Because I didn't provide any examples of animation, I think they were also unsure of that, but they liked the paintings and wanted me to do paintings - which is fair enough, I understand that if you can't demonstrate that track record, they can't rely on the fact that you're going to produce something that's in line with the rest of your work.
So anyway, they wanted me to do painting, they liked the themes and processes and everything that I proposed. The project entailed going to London and Glasgow as well. I've been making a body of work based on the research and experiences that I gathered from going on these trips to London and Glasgow, and the materials that I gathered there - and then also some more academic research.
The programme itself was aimed to open up networks, and to push your practice into showing outside of Wales, or making collaborations outside of Wales. The project that I wrote, with animating, and the fact that I was working with themes in music, involved collaborating with people who are musicians, or working with music rather than artists. It's a completely different sort of conversation that you're having with people that are making music or performance - and I found it's difficult to create those collaborations and networks with those people if you're making work that is just 2D visual. So it was frustrating sometimes when I was meeting musicians and trying to get them on board, but I think, for them, it's hard to see what is valuable, and what is an exchange? Whereas animating works very well with music and performance.
So that was really challenging. I was finding it difficult to find people to build a network outside of Wales, and I didn’t feel I was getting far with all these people that I was talking to, and trying to make connections with. I shared this with Becca, and she helped me to understand that actually, there was a lot of value in even going to London and Glasgow, and making the work about those places. Now, I feel that once I've finished everything, I can approach galleries in different places, or different artists in different places, to say: “ I made this work about this place and about the things that go on here.”
That's probably the best thing that I've taken away from this experience. As well building connections with the other artists who are doing the DAC commission programme, was really important too: because there's a lot of people that are doing really similar things, and that I will continue to to talk with and, who knows, maybe even work with in the future.
2. Professional opportunities:
Q: Did taking part in the commissions programme open up new opportunities for you?
A: I'm not too sure at the moment, I think it's going to be something that will develop and become more evident as time goes on, in relation to what the benefits of this commission have been. Before I've taken the next steps of capitalising on the fact that I now have this way into showing work in other places, I won't know what exactly it has resulted in. I’m not sure how to explain that clearly, sorry.
Becca has asked me for photographs of my work, to create an online profile about me and all the commissioned artists on the DAC website, so that’s a legacy for the project.
To have been commissioned by these organisations - i.e. DAC, and the association with Artes Mundi and the Wales in Venice programme more widely - has had a massive benefit to me in terms of feeling comfortable in my work. Getting to this point, feels like my work is gaining momentum: like there’s value in my work, and it's definitely heading towards something, there's a potential in it, it’s interesting to other people.
This is the first time I’ve worked with DAC. I think I've attended some of their online talks in the past, but I only became aware of the things that DAC was doing probably last year anyway. So it was actually through Wales in Venice that I found out about this commission opportunity, rather than through DAC. I had applied quite a few times before to opportunities specifically with Wales in Venice, and I’d not been successful before this.
This time, when applying I wasn’t sure exactly how the commissions programme was structured between DAC and Artes Mundi, and how the application and selection process was divided between the organisations, whether they were separate things or not. I remember feeling confused about that at the time, and even though I found out about it through Artes Mundi / Wales in Venice I felt I should try applying with the DAC opportunity this time. I just felt that the themes in my work are more in line with the things that DAC are working with.
3. Programme organisation and access:
Q: Was the programme well-run and well managed by the project organisers? (ie DAC and Arts Council Wales). Did you feel that a safe, inclusive and accessible space was appropriately provided for you by the project organisers to explore your practice as an artist? Why or why not?
A: It was definitely well run and managed. I felt like if I had something that I needed to ask, or something I needed to clarify, I could ask at any point - and it would be very clear, DAC would get back to me. I knew that if I needed it, there was always the offer: that if there was something I was unsure about, that they had time to take a conversation with me, and that things would be resolved. With anything I had to ask, the response was always helpful, Becca always would resolve that for me in an email, but there was always the offer of a follow up, or a longer conversation with someone. So that all felt very supportive.
The Work in Progress event was really well run. It was very clear, it's almost weird when things go really well and organisations have taken into account your accessibility needs. I think a lot of the time I didn’t even notice this, I just thought at the end “thankfully that was really easy and not stressful.” Only now when you're asking me, I think: “of course, yeah, that's because we had so much time either side of the actual opening” - to set things up, to speak about it, to sort of feel things out, time that you often just don't get. And also, just letting us know really far in advance about the event, and asking us when would be good for us to do it, and just have everything taken into account, as people with different needs don't want to be faced with sudden deadlines. So, yeah, that was really thoughtful. Whereas a lot of the time in the arts it feels like you’re faced with a scenario of “OK, we can do this on a really short timescale, and people are fine for it to be like that.” I think this needs to be taken into account: the fact that people with different needs just benefit from having more time to set their work up, or whatever it is that they're doing. That was really good.
I remember the Wales in Venice commissions outside of DAC’s commissions were advertised as welcoming applications from people with disabilities and people from minority backgrounds. But then, there was quite a short timescale between when this opportunity was published and the applications deadline, which felt at odds with that. I think it's fair enough that DAC had to conduct their commissions along this timeline as well, and it’s the first time they’ve done something like this, so it’s not really a criticism. We (commissioned artists) gave this feedback to DAC in a session, which was taken on board: that when you set out programmes or projects for people with varying needs, to set them out in exactly the same way as you would for anybody else might not work as well, and it's not as feasible. It's not as feasible for people with different difficulties and disabilities to be able to do something like this in a short amount of time. I think people really need a lot more time to be able to complete the application which DAC were completely in agreement with.
Another issue (for me, personally, I don't know if anybody else struggled with this), was the timespan of the project itself. With the money that we received and the way it was structured time-wise, I guess it was sort of comparable to having a part time job - and this was challenging for me, in terms of juggling this with other commitments, and finding other things that complemented this commission in that timespan. Personally I would’ve rather just been able to focus on just this commission for a shorter, more concentrated time, for example, so that it equated to a full time job in terms of time commitment and financials, rather than stretching over such a long period of time. But then I think it's probably different for different people - because I'm working and I couldn't just stop working to focus on this, whereas I think some other people might not be working in the same way. In the arts, people are juggling things all the time, but it really takes on a new, different sort of sense of juggling when you have certain difficulties in relation to a disability. The way this affects me personally - being autistic, is that it's not always recognised that you have difficulties, hence why I'm working and juggling all these things and sort of living in a way that is comparable to people without the difficulties. So for me, if the project was 6 months long, but with more money, and they expected more work, it would have been easier - because I would just say, “I'm not doing other work, I'm just doing this”. And equally, if it was the same amount of money as this commission, but the timeline was shorter, then I also could have said “I'm not working for two months or three months, I'm just doing this.” That would have been much easier to manage.
I realise you can't always make things work in a way that fits everybody, and with this being open to people with many different disabilities, somebody else might think it was really helpful to have it go on for 6 months, because of other needs. I think it really depends, and it must be really difficult to open up to these communities, for people with disabilities, when there's a whole world of different issues that people are going to face. So yes, I'm not saying this to criticise at all, that was just my personal experience.
There wasn’t much crossover with the Artes Mundi commissioned artists, I feel that was a bit disappointing - especially because I know that there was someone from that cohort who was doing work of a similar theme to mine, and I didn't really know how to make a conversation with them, or whether there was any crossover between between the two commission programmes (DAC and Artes Mundi). But it did seem like there was a bit of a gap, it did feel a bit like separated, I don't know why.
As part of this programme we had some talks from people about accessing spaces: for example, when you're creating an exhibition, what are the sort of access needs or things that create issues. But I don't remember if it was just people from the DAC commissions that attended, or not - there might have been other people actually. I guess if there was a crossover there, it was more that we were all listening to people giving us information, rather than talking and exchanging between us.
Now that I think about it, I remember some people from Artes Mundi being at one of the Zoom talks - but I also seem to remember that the Artes Mundi artists commissions had started earlier than DAC’s, right? So maybe that’s why the crossover felt out of synch, like people from the Artes Mundi commissions were already underway in their projects, whereas we were sort of just starting, I guess. There could have been a stronger connection between the two groups. Because we did a work in progress event where we showed all of our work together (which was really good and helpful), perhaps the people in the Artes Mundi group could have also done that at some point - and that would have been really good to attend, to see what they're doing. (I would have also been open to doing an event like that together with the two groups, but because the timelines were out of synch that would have been difficult in this instance.)
For me, I find the social aspect of these initiatives really difficult, whereas just making work, I can do that. And that's also something that comes into play in terms of people with varying disabilities, because someone might have some difficulty that means it takes them a long time to make the work, but social things and networking could be easy for them.
4. Suggestions for improvement and the future of Wales in Venice:
Context: Part of this evaluation is to help the project organisers think much more widely about their artist commissions and development programmes in the future (not to necessarily replicate the same format as the programme you took part in). One of the aims of Wales in Venice is: “Create an international platform for the visual arts that represents a diverse and forward-looking Wales”.
Q: We are particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on what future developments of Wales in Venice programmes may look like, and how the organisations involved (ACW, DAC, Artes Mundi) should approach working with artists in Wales, as well as international audiences, in the future. With this in mind, do you have any wider insights, questions, or recommendations on this subject that you’d like to reflect on?
A: I'm not really sure. I've never been to the Venice Biennale, I've never seen any of the Wales presentations or work in the festival but have seen the work presented in other galleries when the work comes back to Wales. I’ve applied before to the Invigilator Plus programme but I’ve not been successful.
I think, if Arts Council Wales were going to go back to the normal format that they do - one artist or one sort of piece of work that's representing Wales - and then they have the programme where people go over and support that and they learn alongside it (like Invigilator Plus), I think it would be probably beneficial if DAC was to be involved in that programme, to help to recruit and support people in that programme, for example. I think maybe having people from DAC on their board might help. And that DAC could distribute information about Wales in Venice, regardless of what format that takes: with DAC properly involved, there could at least be some sort of exchange between them, where it's part of, say, the newsletter, or something so that people with disabilities are informed and kept in the loop about these things.
But then, you're probably still going to run into that issue of having the short timescale for applications again, I'm not sure…anytime I bring this up, I realise that it's actually a very difficult thing to change and to challenge because the sort of timelines and calendars that most people are working and running to, and living to, are outside of what some people with different disabilities can reasonably deal with. And they just have to manage to keep up with the sort of timelines that people are running to. I see how it's difficult because when you can't just suddenly say “OK, let's pause everyone, and we're all going to do things slightly slower.” I don't really know what to suggest, though. Obviously, especially when you're dealing with a programme like the Venice Biennale - that's a huge event with so many people involved. I don't know, maybe just starting earlier on things and just putting it out there, sharing plans more while they’re in the making - I think if people in in charge of things like these commissions have provisional dates for things, or any provisional information, it could be good to let people know to allow for more time time, even if they don't have all of the information.
In regards to the future of Wales in Venice, there could also be initiatives that help people to show their work in other ways, in addition to the commissions and the Invigilator Plus programme. Just online, for example, or on billboards, there could be all sorts of different things as well. This may sound like a simple idea, but when you have access needs, and you don't necessarily have the personal funding to be able to make stuff like that happen, that can be really good: just that your work has been there.
5. Anything else?
Q: Is there anything else I haven’t asked that you would like to talk about?
A: I might think of something else later and add it to the notes. But not for now, thank you.
(end of interview 2)
Interview 3: with interviewee Emma Frayne-Ford (commissioned artist 3)
Interview notes: Gaia Rosenberg Colorni, Independent Evaluator and Researcher
1. Developing your practice - ‘before’ and ‘after’ snapshot:
Q: For starters, could you briefly explain to me what you were doing before the commissions programme started, and what have you been up to since? Has anything changed as a result of the programme?
A: The theme of oceans and ocean literacy, which is the theme that my proposal for this commission focused on, is something that I previously had been looking into, and was interested in. I had done some work to do with this theme already, so I wasn't going into this completely without any background on this particular subject - but it was definitely something I wanted to further explore through this commission, progressing and taking that thinking to the next stage.
As part of this commission, I did some research on ocean literacy, and looked at the United Nations’ information around ocean literacy, as they're a first point of call of standardisation, I would say. They are part of a global movement of trying to keep our oceans clean, and, and raise awareness in a way that isn't really ‘preachy’, because I think a lot of people have turned off to that. It’s trying to get local communities looking into regenerating their parts of the ocean, as well as focusing on ocean literacy in schools as well.
The work done in schools interested me a lot in particular, the way that’s broken down into principles, and I dug into those principles more. I lived in London for years, but I actually grew up on the coastline in Wales, and from my experience, not everybody is aware of any sort of education when it comes to the ocean, even when they live near the ‘seaside’.
(We call it ‘seaside’ here, but actually part of ocean literacy is about the idea that it’s all one big ocean, it's not separate, it all flows into a larger system regardless of what part of the planet you live on. So the whole ethos of ocean literacy is not about thinking locally with statements like “Oh, our ocean is cleaner here than over there”, it spans the whole planet so there's no cut off, it’s just one big ocean.)
The fact that people, and children have very little or no awareness of the ocean, and no education on it, has serious consequences even on things like safety. During lockdown, for example, so many people here drowned and died in the sea. During lockdown, people resorted to going to their local seaside rather than going abroad to places like the Mediterranean (where the water is calmer, less dangerous). Even if there’s signposting on sea safety here, I suppose people just kind of stormed the beaches with little awareness of how to be around them here.
Whereas for me growing up on the coast, I was aware from a very early age (when my mum would take me to the beach) about the dangers of the ocean, and how to navigate that environment. That relationship, and awareness about the ocean, interested me. And I think getting children interested, even just in things like safety around the ocean, helps promote ocean literacy.
After living in London for many years I’m now based in South Wales again, where I grew up, just outside of Cardiff (Barry coastline). I can see the sea from my window, and when I look out, I’ve noticed since coming back a year and a half ago that there’s no crabbing here anymore, like there used to be when I was a child. All of these microorganisms and life that existed before, they’re no longer here - that is something that shocked me when I moved home, because I was expecting it all to be there still. And I’m on the Celtic Shelf here as well, which is an area where there’s a lot of interest from the fishing industry, because this area is actually rich in sealife, it produces a lot of fish, so there’s disputes between British and French fishermen to be able to fish there, everyone wants a piece of the pie. But again, the area is now overfished, so it isn’t producing as much fish as it used to.
With overfishing, you can stop fishing for some time, and life may be replenished here. However, with other current phenomena like the increasing acidification of the ocean, everything dies and it’s not possible to produce new life. We are so far down that rabbit hole now, that we can only try to pull back from it, and salvage what we can, but things will never go back the way they were. People don't like to hear that it’s an impossibility, and I never discussed that side of things with people really, but I do podcasting so I've done a lot of listening about what’s going on with the ocean in different parts of the world, especially bearing in mind my own coastal location in Wales. It was definitely something that interested me, and that I wanted to explore, as well as just being drawn to the dramatic side of filming storms, for example.
As part of the Wales Venice 10 commission, I did a lot of filming around the coastline. And, with Becca, we started exploring extremes: so you'd have the beautiful coastline, and whatever the weather, it's still gorgeous, and then I would use a technique called ‘inversion’, what they also call ‘X-ray’, where you flip that and it makes it look like black oil and tar. So I’d have one shot with the coastline looking the way it looks, and then another shot, where it looks apocalyptic.
Much of that we liked, but it was very difficult to get a continuity of colour and scheme with that, because they were too contrasting. And so then I went and took more images (more probably than I'd ever use in a lifetime, as you do) and then narrowed it down. I stylised it more, and then came up with a finished version, but I actually ended up doing two versions. Because I shoot with different cameras - an 8 millimetre old school camera, and a 35 millimetre digital camera - and sometimes I will combine the two, like in my last project, which was to do with urbanisation of a part of Cardiff. That looked fine in that project’s context, because you've got the streets and people which all look very mismatched anyway. But when you're just looking at shots of the ocean, as in this instance, the mismatch didn’t work, and so I created two pieces, and I showed both of those at Chapter, and it worked out very nicely (aside for some technical issues at Chapter, that got resolved straight away, and then it was all good).
>> Follow up question: So, would you say you showed a finished product basically, at Chapter?
At the Chapter event where I showed these pieces, I did manage to essentially show a finished product. It was finished to a very high standard, it was edited to a very high standard and colourised to a very high standard, I think, within the budget that I had to work with. Is there more I want to do on it? I wouldn't change it too much to be honest with you, but I will probably change it slightly. For now, I will let it sit for a while, and then go back to it.
I started life as a filmmaker years ago, and then changed over to moving image. Before lockdown, I did a lot crossing over with movement, and poetry, and stuff like that - and then I've got into the more naturalistic side of things that interests me, which is oceans. In my experience, I think that you've got to be careful when thinking about audiences, that the average stopping time in a museum to look at a piece is incredibly limited - you’re lucky if you get a minute and a half of people’s attention at times (depending on the people, it might be different for artists of course).
So you've got to think of a stylised way that will will capture people, especially the younger generation, and make them stop and look - and even if you get just one message across on, for example, what's going on with the oceans or what ocean literacy means (which is what I did in the captions) that's something, isn’t it. It was all about trying to get the message across, in a way that my style of moving image could work with as well.
>> Follow up question: you mentioned being interested in the younger generation, and also you mentioned ocean literacy in schools earlier. Is taking your work to some kind of school audience an interest for your work?
I would think that if somebody wanted to take my work out there to schools, it would be easy to explain certain of the key points to primary school aged children. I’d be interested in that, but couldn't do that myself I don’t think, but I do know there are people who work on projects like these (taking Shakespeare to schools for example). During lockdown I saw my son access educational content online to learn from home - everything can be computerised now, and it’s something that happens normally in education since lockdown, so my work could be a resource that is distributed in some kind of way like that to children and young people. Watching my own son, and young people generally, they’re all like eco-warriors now, they’re receptive to these issues. And, you know, they go home, and they make their parents think about it too, so that would be nice.
It's very different though, trying to get things into an educational system, as opposed to into a gallery.
I also like the idea, with it being a moving image project, that there are ways that possibly, I could get it shown as a short film and in local cinemas.
And it's just trying to get into areas where it would have a bigger impact on just making people think a little bit, you know? And not just taking it to places where you’d be preaching to the converted. I like the idea of non-traditional gallery spaces as well, because there's still a lot of people that just wouldn't go in a gallery. It's not all about propelling yourself forward as an artist, not for me anyway, it’s about trying to make an impact on people with the work.
I mean, you can have this work shown in a gallery, and you might think you've arrived when you get into a top gallery, but a lot of the times it’s the same people looking at the same work, and the encounter can also be quite superficial, like we said before, when people only have like tiny dwell times and attention spans to actually engage with that. These people do support the arts in a very big way, and they’re important, but we're also missing a huge point of where we can get work shown and engage with whole different groups.
2. Professional opportunities:
Q: Did taking part in the commissions programme open up new opportunities for you? What’s been the biggest benefit for you?
A: Since I've moved back to Wales, as a whole, DAC have been amazing.
This commission has been very good, and I think that the opportunity of working with a producer (Becca) was a huge benefit. Bouncing ideas and work off of Becca was really helpful, and it’s not an opportunity you get every day. I did work like that years ago with someone, albeit in a more traditional film setting. But in film, you always have to work with a whole bunch of people, whereas with arts a lot of the time you're working on your own.
I like the feedback, the input - I don't have to use it, you know, they're not saying you've got to do it this way, but I think a lot of the time by sharing ideas it helps you come to your own conclusions as well. So I think that working with a producer was great, and having that support from both a financial aspect and a creative aspect. That's probably one of the biggest things that come out of this experience - just amazing.
Another really valuable experience, and a highlight of the commission, was allowing us to show at Chapter and present work in progress to a small audience. It made me think about how I could use a space, and how I could create more installation-type experiences in my work moving forward, how to create a more unique space within the presentation of my work.
3. Programme organisation and access:
Q: Was the programme well-run and well managed by the project organisers? (ie DAC and Arts Council Wales). Did you feel that a safe, inclusive and accessible space was appropriately provided for you by the project organisers to explore your practice as an artist? Why or why not?
A: Oh, yeah, definitely. And I think it provided the right mental space as well, which is a big thing for artists: the mental headspace to know that DAC understands where you're coming from.
With Alan for example, who's been a mentor of mine before, as well with DAC more generally - we’ve had many meetings where we've come together on different things, and if I go off on a tangent, Alan kind of pulls me back down, and stuff like that. So I think, the team at DAC understand the way that you think.
Also, I think the way that DAC has worked with Arts Council Wales this time is important - they’ve made Arts Council come to the table in some way, throughout the process, to help artists access these opportunities in a less convoluted way.
Even from the application stage, that was simpler than usual - through to now, in the closing down process, having this interview with you to evaluate, whereas usually the written questionnaire-type reporting that Arts Council usually expect is more difficult to go through. This interview process is really good, it suits me better as an artist than usual evaluations - so that’s another important thing DAC are offering, what they've brought to the table and how they’re affecting Arts Council Wales’ usual ways of working.
4. Suggestions for improvement and the future of Wales in Venice:
Context: Part of this evaluation is to help the project organisers think much more widely about their artist commissions and development programmes in the future (not to necessarily replicate the same format as the programme you took part in). One of the aims of Wales in Venice is: “Create an international platform for the visual arts that represents a diverse and forward-looking Wales”.
Q: We are particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on what future developments of Wales in Venice programmes may look like, and how the organisations involved (ACW, DAC, Artes Mundi) should approach working with artists in Wales, as well as international audiences, in the future. With this in mind, do you have any wider insights, questions, or recommendations on this subject that you’d like to reflect on?
A: I'm not that familiar with the setup of Venice, and how they show it…I know Arts Council Wales were trying to step ‘outside of the box’ this time in terms of funding different artists in a different way.
I think, even if they wanted to continue having some sort of participation in Venice, they could probably do it in a more non-traditional way, depending on what art form they take there.
From my own point of view, I could quite easily project work in several places surrounding the biennial, where people that wouldn't go to the biennial can also see it. But of course that depends on the work, for example it would be trickier to do that with a delicate sculpture or structure of some sort. Anyhow, it would be interesting to think about showing work in and around spaces, working in a way that catches people’s eyes and captures a wider audience, even if they are not expecting to see art or even if they don’t have much time to engage with it necessarily, almost like pop up advertising, that makes them think - with the Venice Biennale being just an example of that, but it could apply to other arts events like that too.
That way of working, and Wales engaging with audiences around the biennial (or even outside of it altogether) could be quite interesting, and quite cheap as well, I think, depending on what the authorities will let you do. Because, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a very expensive, polished thing.
The other suggestion is that rather than just showing one artist, you could have several artists involved, perhaps from different arts disciplines but working towards one theme, as opposed to just spending that much money on one artist to say they've been to Venice.
So that would be my take on this, although I’m not sure exactly of Wales in Venice plans or budget available.
5. Anything else?
Q: Is there anything else I haven’t asked that you would like to talk about?
A: No, I don't think so, it’s all good. Thank you very much for this chat.
(end of interview 3)
Interview 4: with interviewee Ffion Campbell-Jones (commissioned artist 4)
1. Developing your practice - ‘before’ and ‘after’ snapshot:
Q: For starters, could you briefly explain to me what you were doing before the commissions programme started, and what have you been up to since? Has anything changed as a result of the programme?
A: So before I applied, my practice was primarily in sound design and movement. And in my own personal explorations, it tends to sort of mediate between how I'm being inspired and influenced by what I'm creating, musically, and sonically, and then how that influences what I'm instigating in movement. And then usually what happens is, then I introduce some sort of visual element, so whether I document or I film, the movement in it within a certain context - and that tends to inform each practice. So when I have imagery or film, then I'm going back to the music, and I'm kind of interrogating further how the sonic landscape is influenced by what's happening in the visual element. So that's usually my practice on a kind of consistent basis. And it's still a lot of what I do now.
I think when I then started writing the application, I was introducing some new areas that I wanted to explore and develop, which I haven't had opportunity to do before - which was more about using nature and natural elements to also bring a physical presence. I was also quite curious as to how sculpture work can bring a dimensionality into the space that I can then interact with, and use as a way to, I suppose, further narrate the narrative, or the exploration, or the enquiries that I'm having through movement. And that somehow, the physical form or sculptural space is informed by what I'm exploring in my body.
I was aware that I hadn't had a previous practice in any sort of sculptural work. So my initial idea was that I would collaborate with a sculpture artist, and it would be more like a dialogue between their practice and my practice. In addition, I had two friends of mine that are visual artists - one works primarily in illustration, and the other is mostly a painter - and I thought it'd be quite interesting to have conversations with them about the themes that I was particularly interested in, which was about this idea around ‘what is non binary’ or ‘what is fluidity’ within gender as a physical presence, and as a performative practice. And the other person that I invited to collaborate with, was a photographer - I've collaborated with photographers a lot in the past, because I'm heavily movement-based and I suppose in some ways, the body is very visible. Also, because I work with film, there's quite an interesting relationship that I have with photographers where they photograph my movement. I approach that as sculptural expression, as well as it being politically charged in terms of identity, symbolism, and fashion; those kinds of things are sort of embedded in a more subtle way. So that was also connecting back to this exploration around gender, and fluidity: because the body being visible, and then how you photograph it, and who you're photographing. I had a few friends who are quite prominent in the way that they like to identify in physical presence and with their gender, and they define themselves as non binary or gender fluid. And I could see in a lot of ways that they're both performance artists, and it's all around hyper states of their sort of their gender exploration, so I thought it'd be quite interesting to photograph them, however they wanted to be photographed. And then another friend of mine, who's a sex worker and creates a lot of performance work and theatre work around their relationship with that particular industry, and the gender roles that happen in their experiences. So again, they would like specific themes that I had already had in mind, that I thought would be quite interesting to inform the practice in other areas that I was already having, with sound and with movement of my own practice.
But then, once I got the commission, and I started the process, I actually started painting. I know I can paint, but it's not something that I've really done as a practice. And I think it's also because I've worked so much in movement and in music, that I haven't given myself that space, that time, and that curiosity to see how things translate through painting. And I actually found that there was a language developing, in terms of the tonality and the texture and the colours that I was interested in. So I was quite interested in seeing how I could develop this further, into something larger, though with this particular commission with the painting practice, it stayed on a small scale. I think I'm at such an early stage of my signature language, I suppose I'm still defining it, and I'm still discovering what it is, and why I'm expressing it in that particular way. But already I made 6 small canvases, and in those there were very distinct expressions that I could recognise, there was a running theme to do with the texture of skin, and also this idea of molecules and hormones and the insides of a body, and the more microscopic aspect of biology with the human expression. I thought that was quite interesting. I was also writing alongside these kinds of practices of discovering this painting process.
And so, that was like the first 2 months of the commission, and then in January I had my first conversations with the two artists collaborators (Adeola Dewis and Flow Maugran), about how they would respond to these themes. We just had a lot of different conversations around the body and nature and technology, and this relationship that’s hard to kind of ‘make binary’, because when you really get into it, you start to realise that there's so many nuances, and there's so many layers, and actually like a lot of things have already been existing in nature that then you can see replicated in technology have this kind of hybrid expression that isn't one thing or the other, but it's actually an amalgamation of of different things, and very androgynous.
And so then, Adeola Dewis was interested in looking at African spirituality, and within the Nigerian practices and spirituality they have what you call an Orisha and their deities and each deity is a representation or a principle within life or within human life: how we do things, the order of things, the nature of certain principles that humans kind of go by. One of the Orishas that Adeola was interested in is Osunmare, who is the spirit of the rainbow, symbolises regeneration and rebirth, and is often depicted with snakes and serpents. And this deity is basically both genders, and it represents these kind of, two directional forces of the feminine and the masculine, but within one body, and it's the energy of the beginning, you could say: the beginning of time, the beginning of creation, the beginning of renewal, and that energy being one that is supreme over other principles, before other principles come into play. So often in Nigerian culture, they see this particular Orisha as sort of the first one to go to, to ask for permission for any sort of other things that are then going to be manifested or asked for.
As you can see here, there’s a sketch for a painting Adeola was interested in working on, depicting Osunmare. Adeola decided to paint this on hessian as well, so we were talking a lot about working with the elements and natural elements. I just thought that as an identity, the physical expression of this Orisha is quite interesting, and I think it's quite relevant and current to today's ideas around gender, but it’s also an idea which is not new, we've seen for a long time. Also, this idea of fluidity and the serpent being this very sort of fluid creature, and almost androgynous. So, there's a lot around the conversations that we had around this Orisha, and the painting of this Orisha.
The conversations I had with Flow Maugran in that time were more connected to the relationship with technology and nature, and looking at femininity and masculinity as sort of outside of the body or the human experience, and more widely in the environment. There's a constant conversation between feminine and masculine energies in our environment. And when you think about technology, and its sense of invention and design it's this thing that's very direct, it's very active, and we kind of see that almost as masculine (even though that there could be feminine elements to technology, but it's a very masculine industry as well). And then we think about nature and the Earth, and how it’s got a constantly changing, very fluid kind of energy (even though again, you can have masculine elements in nature). So Flow was looking at ways of illustrating forms that were not necessarily human or identifiably a person, but more like an energy or an element that incorporated qualities or expressions of technology, and these elements of nature. So then they came up with three illustrations on cards. Each one was quite different, and they're really detailed: there are a lot of lines, and you can see the patterns look a bit like what you'd see inside a motherboard on a chip, or in a computer; but, it's sort of like interconnected with these forms that look like leaves or branches, and it's all really beautifully interconnecting, and then occasionally, you might see a face emerge in an aspect of that.
So it was quite interesting having conversations with them, and then also initiating another practice that I was having: at the same time as checking in with them and their process, I started to work with clay. And that was very intuitive, it was quite organic: I didn't have any ideas, but for some reason I just wanted to touch clay, and I didn't know what was going to come out of it. I thought this might just be something that's going to inform my movement - because there is something quite interesting about the relationship with using clay and shaping clay, and then also thinking about the body and thinking about movement. But then, I actually ended up making a series of faces - which just happened. Once I'd made the first one, I thought: “OK, this is something that's happening, and I need to just go with it and just see where it takes me”. I made seven faces: the seventh one is that the largest one is about 20 inches long, and maybe 50 inches wide, and the others are quite small, around 5 inches width, and maybe 5,6, or 7 inches in length.
As I was creating these faces, I tuned into current conversations around gender in the societal space - conversations on identity and gender expression, and uncertainties on how to navigate these. I was watching a lot of documentaries, YouTube videos, and archives of people's posts and things that they were talking about, just generally just to hear what people were saying. I'd had a few conversations with personal friends in my network as well - I'd asked some people to send through voice notes around how they perceive gender, as an expression, and their own relationship with their own gender. And this was a mixture of people, not just non binary people. As I was making these faces, I was realising that my perception of what I thought was being made was constantly changing. And for me, that was kind of one of the most interesting connections I made around these themes of gender: that a lot of it has to do with perception, and that that can constantly change according to the context and the person, and then you have all these kinds of different characteristics and layers of intersectionality that play into gender (like race, language, class, environment, how they're dressing, how they speak, their biology).
When they were being completed, these faces were really quite distinct: the expression in the faces were distinct, and there seemed to also be a distinct element of ethnicity coming through in these faces. That was very subconscious I think, because I wasn't trying to create specific faces from specific geographical identities, that was just kind of happening. With each layer that I was building on the face, there would be a moment where I'm like: “I think this is a man”. And then, I'd get confused because of that, actually, and think “I can't tell actually, I don't know who this is, I don't know what this is”. And then when it would finish, it would feel very motherly, and it would feel like a woman - and I'd be like: “Oh, that's really interesting, because it felt very masculine when I first started creating this face”. So I started writing about that process as well, because the process was really interesting for me, more so than making the final product.
And then I got to March, and it was sort of this time of reflection. I was reflecting over the paintings that I had made, and then the faces that were being made. I'd gotten to a point where I'd painted the faces - I was using spray paint, and I was playing with different ways of getting the paints to sort of melt and drip into each other. So the colours were sort of, almost like how you look at marbled stone, when it's got all these different rings and layers. I was exploring those different textures, and again, that was making me think about stones, and rocks, and earth. And then I was looking at the paintings, and I was thinking ahead, that it would be amazing (maybe not at this stage right now, but in the next couple of stages), to be able to introduce the painting signature language that I have created or explored here, onto the clay work. And I don't know what that looks like yet, but that’s what emerged from the reflection on making sense of what was coming up, and how the different conversations relate to each other.
I'd also done a photoshoot with the photographer, and the two artists I was collaborating with, and I also got involved in that as well. That happened in a day, but I did also then interview the two other artists about things like why they came dressed the way they were, why they looked a certain way, what is their intention, what's their relationship with the way that they choose to identify and the way they choose to dress. At some point, I’d like to be able to have a platform somewhere to present these conversations (with their interviews), alongside the images of them. And I think that again, somehow that can exist with all the other stuff that I've been exploring with the clay work, with the paintings, and also with Adeola’s painting and Flow’s illustrations.
Right now, with everything that's been produced and that has now culminated, things are sitting in sort of ‘islands’. I can see the relationship between them, and I can see where they connect, but I think this commission allowed me to basically just generate that process, and to have those conversations, and to discover / explore various ways that I might like to continue my practice in the future.
And actually, I didn't end up doing any movement at all. I did make some sound design, but I didn't have a thorough practice with the sound design like I usually do - usually, I might be really manipulating or playing with textures, doing field recordings, and all that - I didn't really get a chance to do any of that this time. I did make a soundscape for the presentation that we had at Chapter but again, that was a very brief piece - just looking at how the voice, vowels, and language, can also have a very masculine and feminine relationship - and there were also particular things that I'd come across and that I was researching, about old languages. For example there was one particular language, Kemetic, which I was quite curious about - as a language in itself, and also in contrast with the Welsh language. Kemetic is ancient Egyptian (pre-Greek), so it's one of the oldest archived languages. In Kemetic, the consonants, and vowels, and shapes, and textures - and the way that it is expressed overall, I think, is quite dynamic and quite percussive, there's just an interesting sonic vibration to those words. I was looking at a video, with a man who was talking about that language, and he was talking about how in more pre-ancient civilisations, people use language more as a sort of frequency (rather than, you know, day to day conversation), to really create certain frequencies and sounds that replicate the expression or the energy of certain things in the environment, and how they would talk about things like plants growing, or food. And the words for those particular things would be a vibrational expression of the action of that, or that phenomenon - I thought that was really interesting.
In that video, the man goes on to express some of these words, and he talks about the voice in this particular way. I thought that was something that I might continue to kind of look into within my sound practice, because I work with voice a lot, but I've never had the opportunity to also bring that perspective into the Welsh language. I speak Welsh, and I went to bilingual school - I've got this interest to push more into that direction, in terms of really exploring different ways of using the Welsh language, other than to just recite things or to just explain something - but rather, to use it in a vibrational and textural kind of way, because it's such a dynamic language. So in my sound design work that I showed at Chapter, I did feature the man who was explaining this, and I kind of used fragments of what he was saying to introduce the soundscape.
Whilst I was in Chapter for a couple of days before the presentation, I had a friend come in to document just my process in the studio, just trying things and hanging things up. I had some of the clay faces suspended, and I was also exploring the relationship between, I suppose we could say ‘artificial’ or ‘manufactured’ representations of the body through pieces and parts of mannequins, versus something really organic that came from my own exploration through clay. So I had mannequin parts, like hands, and a foot, and an arm, also suspended in the space, along with having the clay faces suspended in the space. And my friend was going around, and filming and archiving my process with that exploration in space.
Those three days at Chapter were really important, actually, because I did ask Becca if there was a way to have space to explore specifically in terms of how you present sculptural work. Without those three days, it would have been very different - I do think it's totally different, making something and then just showing it. Because I'm also a movement practitioner, and I work with live art, I love being in the physical space and being present, and using spatial design and dramaturgy to create energy, or a certain dynamic environment. So for me, it was quite exciting to be able to suspend some of the things I'd created and then see how that changes the space, or the orientation. Even some of the pieces were moving on their own, which I thought was really interesting: that within 40 minutes, what was originally facing this way was then facing that way. There was a real kind of aliveness to that, and I was thinking about how my movement is then conversing in a space like that, where there is actually a quite a dominant conversation between my body and what I'm expressing in my movement, versus the things that I've created and how they're presented in the space. Just thinking about, if I was going to do this more, if this was going to become a more dominant practice of mine, what kind of conversations I could create within a space, and playing with space in that way, and then interacting with it and moving with it.
On the presentation day at Chapter, the footage of my exploration in that space was projected, and the sound design that I was exploring went together with the visual imagery. I didn’t specifically want them to go hand to hand, it wasn’t like making a movie. It was more just part of the presentation, it was something that I wanted people to be aware of that I was exploring. But again, it wasn’t necessarily a process where I had the time, and maybe the feedback to present something the way I want to, if that makes sense, like for an exhibition, for example. I think something like an exhibition is what I originally wrote about, but then I realised that I probably need more time and more guidance and more feedback before I can put an exhibition on. But it was good to be able to just share what I've worked on. And I think that for me, that was the goal: that even if things are not meant to be together, that I can just show different aspects together. And, if I have a bit more time, then I can potentially orchestrate that a bit more sophisticatedly. So yeah, there's a lot of different areas that I was discovering.
2. Professional opportunities:
Q: Did taking part in the commissions programme open up new opportunities for you? What was the biggest benefit for you?
A: I think the biggest thing that I've taken from this experience, and that feels very affirmative, is that visual arts is the medium that I really want to fully commit to. Before this commission, I wasn't fully committed to working solely as a visual artist, I'd kind of been quite fragmented in my approach: I've done bits of film, bits of sound, and I've done some kind of live art performances with movement. But I was sort of, neither here nor there. Whereas after this process, I felt very clear in terms of what I would like to do next. And it very much exists in the visual arts realm. I would like to continue working with clay; I feel like I've touched the surface, and I've just scratched the skin of the surface of it, and I now feel like if I do this for the next two years, there will be more that I can kind of work with, something more profound, as a language or as a signature. And there's definitely something that I've discovered about moving with sculptures and with sculptural elements, as well as moving through and around sculptural forms, that I'm keen to develop more as well. So I think this commission very much highlighted the area that I now want to move forwards with, and focus on: it feels very clear to me now.
3. Programme organisation and access:
Q: Was the programme well-run and well managed by the project organisers? (ie DAC and Arts Council Wales). Did you feel that a safe, inclusive and accessible space was appropriately provided for you by the project organisers to explore your practice as an artist? Why or why not?
A: Yeah, absolutely. I think Becca did an amazing job in terms of being able to allow us to have that ‘opening up’ of possibilities - that if things did adapt or change, compared to what we'd originally set out to do, that’s fine. In fact, that was kind of encouraged.
I think it was great having been able to have check-in points throughout the different stages, and that Becca was very open to accommodating to the type of practice that I had. There was a really good balance there: I didn't feel like she was pressuring me, or, you know, trying to get me to present something, or show her what I was up to. I could go like a month or two, just completely in my own zone, and then I could have that check-in with her. And that that was the right time, and the right amount of information exchange and sharing, to then go back to my process and focus in on it again. The kind of proximity between presenting or sharing something, versus being in my process, was really great. And that’s not always the case: I’m aware from previous experience (although in a slightly different context, when I've done live art or movement work) that there’s often this feeling from others of constantly wanting to know what you're up to, and what you're doing. Sometimes that feels like a little too much pressure. I think the fact that I had such a range of space and time to do it in my own way this time was valuable. And when I had concerns, and I spoke to Becca about them, she was always really reassuring and just reminding me that this is actually an opportunity to play, experiment, and to not be afraid to make mistakes. So that was really encouraging.
I didn't manage to attend all the regular online talks, but I made it to the first two, and they were really great as well. Not only to meet the other artists, but also just to have something that relates (maybe indirectly) to my practice, whilst also being something general that everyone can apply in some way, whatever they want to take from it: like introducing different areas of how other people practise, or ways of working in the visual arts industry, or ways of making connections and this idea around ‘how do you build international relationships’. I think a lot of those conversations were sort of going over my head at the time, just because I was so involved in my process, and a lot of things were quite new to me - but I do really appreciate that they were there, and they were available if I wanted to tap into them. Probably, if I was at a different stage of my practice, they might have correlated in a different way. I just really appreciated having that space.
4. Suggestions for improvement and the future of Wales in Venice:
Context: Part of this evaluation is to help the project organisers think much more widely about their artist commissions and development programmes in the future (not to necessarily replicate the same format as the programme you took part in). One of the aims of Wales in Venice is: “Create an international platform for the visual arts that represents a diverse and forward-looking Wales”.
Q: We are particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on what future developments of Wales in Venice programmes may look like, and how the organisations involved (ACW, DAC, Artes Mundi) should approach working with artists in Wales, as well as international audiences, in the future. With this in mind, do you have any wider insights, questions, or recommendations on this subject that you’d like to reflect on?
A: I definitely feel like there's room for them (the project organisers, DAC and Arts Council Wales) to be more hands on with that kind of international conversation. For me, it's very hard to even know where to begin establishing an international relationship. I think often, an organisation might say, “Well, what do you need?”, or “What do you want?”, or “How do you want to…?” And I feel a bit like “Well, I don't know, you know.” I kind of need someone to put me in contact with someone, or with something like an opportunity, a space, a conversation, for that to inform me and how that might, or might not, work for me. Before that, it's quite hard for me to kind of pick something out, and just visualise or imagine it - I can be very vague, and that's not always helpful. I think what Becca was saying to me was that if I have specific contacts I want to develop, I need to tell her - but I don't have specific contacts, you know, because I don't have that starting point.
So I think that, for me that’s something that could definitely be a lot more hands on for people in my situation: when we don't have those contacts with whom we actually want to build a relationship with, we don't know who to go to, we don't know who would be interested in our work, we don't know how to brand ourselves, and we don’t know each event, or each platform that has a specific interest in certain types of work. If you don't know that language, of how to market yourself to those kind of partnerships, then it's very hard to even know who you're trying to have the conversation with. And I I don't feel like there's been any sort of international presence at all within this commission process, but I think that's also because I haven't instigated or demanded this, I wasn’t able to identify a partnership with a particular organisation or platform - but that's because of my limited knowledge.
One thing that is quite interesting is that, from the presentation that we did at Chapter, another member from DAC has suggested that maybe the Wellcome Centre would be interested in my work, and that was something that they could help with, potentially, to bridge that conversation and see if there was a possibility there. I think those kind of conversations, even in the earliest stages of the practice, are interesting. And if there's already interesting themes that correlate with certain organisations from the start of that practice, or in the middle of the process, further working to embed those kind of areas of interest is of value. Because for me, I didn't have any of those conversations as I was creating the work, so I'm just solely thinking about what I'm working on, and then the presentation, and that's all I've been focusing on - but it would have been good to be aware of this opportunity or this kind of platform, their interests in this kind of work and the potential connections, perhaps earlier on in the process, so that as I'm going through that process, I'm aware of partnerships and potential next steps.
I think even just being sent a list of different organisations, artists, residencies, platforms, links, and people who have a specific interest in the kind of work you’re doing - as well as what they're looking for, and the kinds of things that you can apply for - maybe something like that would have been helpful. Specifically focusing on organisations and partnerships, or people that I can actually contact, or instances where I can see the portfolio of previous artists that they've supported, so that in my own time I could look through whatever the places are, and the people that they've previously supported, and the kind of disciplines and themes that they are interested in, to get an understanding of what's out there and what people have done already. A lot of the times I think, I'm connected to my network, but again, I don't really know how people get to where they get to, and I'm also not fully exposed to different kinds of artists, I'm only exposed to who I know, and that can sometimes be quite a closed circle. So it's quite interesting to be able to be introduced to other organisations that are connected to their community or their following, and see what kind of world they're moving through or working with.
5. Anything else?
Q: Is there anything else I haven’t asked that you would like to talk about?
A: I don't know if this might be useful for the evaluation, I don't know in what context you would use it for. But this is just generally something that I'm mindful of, and that I'm thinking about as I'm coming to the end of the commission, as something that I really value and that I always want to improve on regarding my awareness of how to communicate this. Which is essentially: just looking at how what has been established can be sustained. So even if that's just between me and Becca, or if there's someone else that I'm kind of connected to through DAC: just to be aware of the best way to keep this conversation going, so that when the commission ends, I don't just become a complete stranger. Because I've had that happen in the past, and it's quite a strange experience where you go through a process, and then you kind of just disappear under the radar, and it's then quite hard to reach back out to that organisation. I think it makes sense when you're coming to the end of something, before it's finished, to really highlight that I would like to keep this conversation or this communication going in some kind of way.
So yeah, I think that's something that I'm thinking of and probably will communicate with Becca about: how can I best keep that door open between us. And wondering also what DAC can also do in that way, to be able to always feel like I can contact them at different stages of my journey, because I think that would be really great.
I'm quite fond of personal communication, so I think maybe I’ll speak with Becca abour whether she’d be interested in, you know, every several months or something, to kind of check in, go for a tea and just have a chat, and it can just be a chat. So that that is sort of in the more personal sphere, that feels quite familiar, but in a more administrative sense, I suppose being able to update DAC on my journey would be helpful. So maybe in four months time or something, that it wouldn't be strange for me to email them and say something along the lines of: “Oh, I've just been working on this, and this is the footage of that work, and now I’m doing this, let me know if there's any connections with what you are working on that relates to this”.
>> Follow up question from Gaia: So, I take it you are not aware of the DAC membership? Do you mind if I flag this to Becca, and I will also send you a link to the DAC membership info?
A: No, I wasn’t aware of it - that sounds good, please do send me further information. Thank you.
(end of interview 4)
Interview 5: with interviewee Giles Bennett (commissioned artist 5)
1. Developing your practice - ‘before’ and ‘after’ snapshot:
Q: For starters, could you briefly explain to me what you were doing before the commissions programme started, and what have you been up to since? Has anything changed as a result of the programme?
The process was, for me, very short, partly because I didn't really understand what the commission was from reading it, I found it difficult to understand exactly what it was, and I nearly didn't apply. I thought it was actually an application for ‘Wales in Venice’ as in taking part in the actual Venice Biennale, so I didn't think that I was anywhere near established enough as an artist to do that. I thought it was kind of out of my league, I guess. Then I went along to one of the Zoom meetings about it, and went, “Oh, actually, no, I can I can apply for this.” Though, by the time those Zoom meetings happened, there was actually quite a short space between that and get actually getting the application in - I can't remember now how long it was, it was somewhere around a month, give or take a week or so. And I was quite busy at the time, so I was a bit rushed for that. I mean, it clearly wasn't that much of a problem, because I got one of the commissions, but it kind of felt very rushed from that at the time.
At the time of applying, I just had a residency in Newport with Tin Shed Theatre Co - I spent two weeks at their community art space, where I ended up exploring projections and ways of presenting work or footage in different ways, that really helped me. So by the time the Wales in Venice commission opportunity came round, I was feeling more confident that I could pull something like that off. Soon after the Tin Shed Theatre Co residency, I also then did a residency in TÅ· Pawb, Wrexham. I think I just had a two week window between the two residencies, and that was during the time where Wales in Venice applications were live, so I worked on the Wales Venice 10 commissions application in those two weeks - it was quite hectic, but I got it all done.
I got the Wales Venice 10 commission when I was in Wrexham, during the TÅ· Pawb residency. I was at TÅ· Pawb meaning to be doing experimental photography, which is what I proposed that I was going to do, but by then I had kind of already got a bit more into doing moving image through the work with Tin Shed, and also through a project I’d done a few weeks before that with an artist called Jony Easterby, who is an installation artist. That was kind of unofficial residency with Jony and nine other artists, where as part of a residency Jony was doing, he just invited a bunch of people to come out, experiment and play around for a week - so I had started doing a little bit of projection experimentation there.
So yeah, in summary the Wales venice 10 commission happened during a busy time, and I wasn't really able to dedicate my full attention to it at the start, aside for doing bits and bobs, because I was still doing the residency in Wrexham when Wales Venice 10 started. And it was kind of a bit weird. I didn't really start fully focusing on the Wales Venice 10 commission until the beginning of this year, around January 2023, when I was finally able to think “OK, this is now my main focus now”, rather than trying to get my head around doing more than one thing at a time.
When I wrote the Wales Venice 10 application, I was kind of thinking of many possible avenues to travel and connect with people internationally: thinking I was going to go to France, and potentially reaching out to some contacts in Holland that I have, for example. But then actually, the more I thought about it, the more it kind of felt a bit bitty as an approach - it felt like I would be just doing a little thing here, and a little thing there.
What I actually decided I'd rather do is, to try and set up a tour to take my installation around different places, rather than just trying to get to one place and do it, and then maybe do it again somewhere else on an ad hoc basis. So I then arranged to visit various people in Scotland, because I decided that I liked the idea of taking the show to more rural parts of a country: places that don't normally get immersive installation art, places where you'd have to drive to London, or Birmingham, or Edinburgh, or Glasgow to see art. I've got connections with the Highlands of Scotland, from when I used to be a circus performer and I used to do quite a lot of work there, so I've always had a bit of a soft spot for that place. And I kind of like the connection between the Highlands and rural West Wales (where I am), and that rural connection more generally - because we don't get to see anything around here, no one ever comes here - there's occasionally things that happen, but only if local artists get it together and put it on themselves. So, I thought that I'd like to do that more. I mean, I would show anywhere really, including in more traditional or established galleries, but the rural focus has been of particular interest.
So, I Googled and then emailed arts centres in Scotland in the first instance, and then I also thought of councils and offices in various regions, so I emailed a whole bunch of people. From that, I think I had four meetings booked in to go and visit people around different parts of Scotland: from places quite close to the English border, actually right up to the right up onto the North Coast. It was quite an epic journey. I was visiting friends as well on the way, and I ended up making more contacts through them as well, I had a couple of meetings off the back of just visiting friends there.
The people I met were interested in my work, but they were from reasonably small organisations, so they haven't got the funding to immediately go “Yes of course, we will pay you to come up and take your project here”, but I've got interest from several several galleries whereby, if I managed to take this one stage further and managed to get some funding to tour it, then they would love to have me. I was in contact with an arts officer on Orkney and she gave me a couple of direct email addresses of people that I had not been able to contact directly, too - nothing actually came of those two particular contacts, but the arts officer then also forwarded by email message on to someone who runs the Orkney Science Festival, and positively, they're interested in in showing it - so they have asked for a rough budget and further information for that. I've not heard back from them since sending them that information, and it’s been nearly a month now, so I’ll be chasing that up a little.
2. Professional opportunities:
Q: Did taking part in the commissions programme open up new opportunities for you?
A: Yes, totally. Confidence wise, it was really great - especially as I’d committed to doing certain things through my proposal, so I then actually had to follow them through, I felt a strong commitment to achieve those goals - whereas if I was doing this off my own back (things like visiting and making new contacts in Scotland), then I probably wouldn’t have had the courage to do that. So having that extra courage, as well as that extra drive and commitment, combined with the opportunity to have meetings with different galleries, was really positive - just being able to walk into a space and confidently say “Ah yes, I’m the artist”, was really nice.
From the creative point of view, it was great to be able to ‘think bigger’. I was able to think on a much larger scale than I would normally - whether it was projecting through fish tanks, or through sheets of perspex, or smoke or whatever - the commission gave me an opportunity to experiment with these things and they them all together, rather than just focusing on little bits of it as I might have normally.
The other thing the commission allowed me to do was to set up work in progress shows. In addition to the work in progress exhibition that DAC organised in Cardiff at Chapter, I also booked Star of the Sea in Borth, which is an old, beautiful chapel now used as an arts and music venue, and I also went back to Tin Shed in Newport. I booked Star of the Sea for a few days and made a show there: they've got sails on the ceiling, lots of pillars, and different amazing features there, so it was really easy to make a fabulous show. The place in Newport is basically an office space, with a polystyrene ceiling and carpet tiles, it’s not a beautiful space like the chapel but I kind of intentionally chose that because I knew it was going to be a difficult space to work with - and it was, actually, it was quite difficult to make something beautiful and interactive there. But it was a great opportunity to experiment and work on different ideas in those two distinct spaces; as well as getting footage and documentation of the shows, to present again in future, and feedback from the public. The work in progress event at Chapter was also good, but there were a few technical problems on that day so I ended up helping people with that, and I didn’t get to speak to many people attending the event.
Having feedback from audiences was really valuable. It's one thing having ideas about what I want to do and what it’s going to be like in my head, but then to bring an audience in and see how they interact with it, is another. It was useful to learn how they interact with the work, they didn't interact with it in the way that I thought they would. I thought people would be a little bit more inquisitive, kind of going up and having more of a closer look at certain elements, like the fish tank. They did a little bit, but not as much as I expected they would. I’d also been to a show by someone I know, a few months earlier, it was a sound sculptor who put on an installation with seats around, and I noticed how people there were sitting down and experiencing the work. So, I was inspired and I made it a point to explore this through my shows - I thought, actually I need to make the experience much more spatial. And I think that really worked, people stayed for quite a while. Star of the Sea was an unheated chapel around the end of February / beginning of March, I remember it was snowing on the hills at the time, so I was quite impressed with people staying so long - I think most people were staying for 30-45 minutes there. And a week or so later in Newport, I think there were some people that stayed for the whole two and a half hours, which was fantastic and better than I could have imagined - most people there stayed at least half an hour anyway, there were of course others who just wondered in an out, but that’s normal (I do that too sometimes).
3. Programme organisation and access:
Q: Was the programme well-run and well managed by the project organisers? (ie DAC and Arts Council Wales). Did you feel that a safe, inclusive and accessible space was appropriately provided for you by the project organisers to explore your practice as an artist? Why or why not?
Yes, I think so. It would have maybe to have had a few more group Zoom conversations - I think we had a couple, but it would have been nice to have met people a little bit more, it'd be nice to have felt that it was more of a community, more of a thing in some way. The Chapter show at the end was really nice, it was really lovely to meet people. It would have been nice maybe to have had an early meet up in person, if it had been possible, just for a day to talk to each other about what we were working on. Of course at the Chapter event, we were there to have discussions about what we were doing - but at that point, we had mostly mostly done it all. There were still things to be finished and things kind of up in the air a little bit, of course, but basically by that stage it was more about bringing it all together, bringing it to a close. So yeah, it would have been nice to have felt more of a community coming together from the start. Generally in terms of meeting people I prefer in person, then Zoom, and then lastly, I will use a telephone if I really have to. (Right now for example I like this Zoom videocall because I can look at you and I can judge the conversation better, whereas on the phone, it can be harder for me to communicate effectively.)
Overall, apart from the application process being confusing and too tight in terms of timescales for me (as I mentioned earlier), the overall organisation and management of the project from DAC’s side was good, it all worked. It was good to have a friendly face at the other end of an email, like Becca, to support me and answer any of my questions throughout the commission. We met about once a month throughout the process, which was good. I'm sure I could have met more with Becca if I needed to as well, but it seemed that that was about right, for me at that stage anyway.
>> Follow up question: You mentioned earlier that timescales overall felt a bit rushed for you. So, can I double check, do you feel like 6 months was long enough for you to do this commission?
I think 6 months for a commission like this would have been absolutely fine actually. I was just busy with other projects for the first three months of that, so I guess that the real issue was the lead in time, rather than the duration of the commission itself. As I recall, I think the application window was maybe like 6 weeks from when it was advertised to when the deadline was, and again I feel that’s fine in principle - but then that introductory Zoom talk about the opportunity was quite a bit after the applications had opened, it felt too near to the deadline. And then, once more, the commission start date was too soon after the application deadline, so there wasn’t enough lead in time for me to wrap up other projects I had ongoing at the time.
I did, however, enquire about timescales and I was reassured by DAC that there was some wiggle room, so that was helpful. Also, it’s good for me to have deadlines to work with, it helps me generally - otherwise I’d just go on faffing forever, whereas this commission gave me structure. But yeah, I think maybe a longer lead in time throughout would be better, with two months intervals for example: two months to apply including the information session, two months from having confirmation of being selected until when the project has to start, because artists may have other stuff going on, and this was a big project, so being able to plan a bit further down the line makes it easier to fit it in this commission with other work.
4. Suggestions for improvement and the future of Wales in Venice:
Context: Part of this evaluation is to help the project organisers think much more widely about their artist commissions and development programmes in the future (not to necessarily replicate the same format as the programme you took part in). One of the aims of Wales in Venice is: “Create an international platform for the visual arts that represents a diverse and forward-looking Wales”.
Q: We are particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on what future developments of Wales in Venice programmes may look like, and how the organisations involved (ACW, DAC, Artes Mundi) should approach working with artists in Wales, as well as international audiences, in the future. With this in mind, do you have any wider insights, questions, or recommendations on this subject that you’d like to reflect on?
A: One comment around this is that the Wales in Venice application pack stated that there would be help, as part of this commission, to make contacts internationally. However, that actually turned out just to be an email list of contacts that didn't look particularly useful to me. It certainly read to me, through I don't know about anyone else, that there would be more opportunities for relevant, direct introductions, or that there would be some kind of help with the international side more. Becca did do well with contacting people on my behalf - she contacted the Scottish arts officers who in turn gave me some other contacts to reach out to (though actually, most of them never got back to me). You know, it just sounded from the project’s description that there might be a bit more of an international connection already, but in reality it kind of felt like I had to do that myself. And as an artist applying to opportunities like this, I’ve had previous experience of just this actually: sometimes it feels like that there's all of this talk about connecting with Europe, for example, but when it comes to it, you’re kind of on your own.
I think that's a problem with the UK arts in general. By contrast, I was in Vienna for the Rotlicht Festival recently, as I had some work shown in their open exhibition. I couldn’t really afford going there at the time, but I was thinking about it anyway, and then the festival organisers just emailed me, and they were like “So, are you going to come?” - and I was pleasantly surprised by the invitation and said “Yes!” In that email they were also very accommodating with stating the budget available for my trip: they said they had funding to put me up in a hotel in Vienna, with breakfast, and 150 EUR towards the flight (which actually fully covered the flight, which is great). The festival there was happening in various different galleries, they've got like a main space where do a couple of big exhibitions, and other events and things around the city went on - there were lots of galleries and art spaces to visit and, as well as people's personal spaces around the city. Just having been to European festivals like these, I think, they do it so much better. And they look after artists. In Vienna they paid for all the production costs like printing my pictures, as well as my travel and stay there, and they're all very, very lovely - they went out of their way to look after people that we just don't get in the UK. And this was just me taking part in a group show where they had at least a dozen other artists involved. Whereas in the UK, if you go to something like that, and have work shown in an open exhibition, the contractual responsibilities including insurance etc. usually all fall on the artists, as well as the responsibility to cover costs. It just feels the wrong way round.
5. Anything else?
Q: Is there anything else I haven’t asked that you would like to talk about?
A: I don't think so, thank you. It was nice to meet you.
(end of interview 5)
Interview 6: with interviewee Marcy Saude (commissioned artist 6)
1. Developing your practice - ‘before’ and ‘after’ snapshot:
Q: For starters, could you briefly explain to me what you were doing before the commissions programme started, and what have you been up to since? Has anything changed as a result of the programme?
A: So, thinking about before this commission… About a year ago now, I completed a longer film that was part of a larger project, which I was the project lead on. It was embedded within a wider project, that had culminated in a three person show at KARST gallery in Plymouth, and before that culmination stage, one of the main aspects of the programme was screenings of artists' film work. That project started right before COVID, and so it got derailed for a long time, especially as part of the project was about having the opportunity for community conversations around these film screenings. So, that project had a big pause in the middle of it. And I feel everybody got quite burnt out very quickly, with screen time over the pandemic, too.
In the midst of all that, I'd finally received an official diagnosis of ADHD, and I'm still currently in the process of diagnosis for autism spectrum. And, it was all just too much for me at the time. As part of that project, I ended up completing quite an ambitious film, actually. It's 27 minutes long, and it has lots of different parts. And in a way I was really happy with it, but I was also deflated by the overall process because I don't like being a producer, it was too much for me.
I really wanted to concentrate on just making my work again - and so the Wales Venice 10 commission that came up was an opportunity to just make my work, and not have to do the other stuff. That was a real relief because it allowed me space to then just think about my work.
I expect I might have to be project lead again on future projects. I live in Aberystwyth, and find that if I don't make things happen here, if I don’t initiate projects, then they’re unlikely to happen. It's not like there are plenty of opportunities like the DAC commission here, this opportunity was really valuable. Usually when you prepare an Arts Council proposal, you can't really just propose making a work, you have to explain all of the workshops you're going to do, and the networking, and the professional development, and the connections with the community you intend to deliver. Sometimes you almost end up feeling like a severely underpaid social worker, where you're going to personally make up for the complete collapse of the government’s social safety net. And that’s too much if you're an artist, and you're trying to make work.
Because I applied for one of the smaller Wales venice 10 commissions, I wasn't necessarily able to make a super ambitious piece of work. But at the same time, the fact that it was a smaller scale project for me was good, because I was able to test and try out some techniques and processes that I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing, if it had been kind of a larger project. So that was valuable. (Interestingly, just as an aside, I noticed at the Work in Progress sharing event at Chapter, that although there were some variations in scale / finish / ambition of the work, I really couldn’t tell from the work shown who got the higher budget and who got the lower budget commissions. But I guess again, the emphasis wasn’t on production of a complete/finished work, and I’m not making a judgement here on the works at all, I’m just noting this because I thought it was interesting, and I wondered about this.)
>> Follow up question from Gaia: has the project made you think about your practice differently?
I wouldn’t say that the commission has changed my overall practice, but it's changed some of the processes within my practice.
The commission has given me room to explore different methods of filmmaking, and I was able to break out of some of my standard ways of filming things. I was able to take a bit more of a risk in terms of how I approached the filming, whereas sometimes, if I don't have space to do that, I kind of have to revert to the familiar ways of doing things.
Having that funding gave me kind of a cushion, for more experimentation that I normally could do. As a filmmaker I am very process based, so this cushion was particularly good and useful for me.
>> Follow up question: and where have you got to now, with this work?
I'm still tweaking it a little bit right now.
As a next step, I'll be submitting to film festivals, and hopefully putting together a touring programme of some of my films that are thematically linked. I need to figure out a way to raise some additional funding for this, I work with celluloid film a lot of the times and this project didn't have enough funding for me to make a physical film print out of what I did, so I need to somehow come up with some extra money to create a film print too. The lab that I work with has been invited to show some work at the Oberhausen Film Festival in Germany, next April, so that is an opportunity but I have to make a film print for that.
One of the areas that I want to develop more in my practice, and that I was hoping this commission would help me develop, is to be able to have destinations for my work that aren't film festivals. I'd quite like to be able to have more space-based and installation-based presentation opportunities.
So, I'm just going to send it to film festivals, like I usually do, because that's just obvious as a next step. But I do wish there were more and different opportunities to exhibit the work, and I feel it would have been good for the Wales Venice 10 commission programme to support this side of things more.
It could be just my misunderstanding, but I feel like the way the commission was presented, and in the description of this project itself, it sounded like help to make connections with international exhibition opportunities would be available. And that help was then just a list of galleries, almost all of which were not very appropriate for most of the work being produced on the project. I've already given this feedback to Becca - some of the galleries provided in that list were about outsider artists and galleries, like the kind of galleries that show work from people who have no training. And that felt just off base for the artists working on this project. It just felt like there weren't really connections with anything on a major international artists level, which was pretty disappointing.
2. Professional opportunities:
Q: Did taking part in the commissions programme open up new opportunities for you?
A: It was really nice to meet the other commissioned artists.
It was especially good to meet Giles Bennett as the only other artist who's based outside of South Wales. He's pretty near me actually, and you know, there aren't that many media artists working in this area, so that was really cool. He has so much energy, things are like a tour de force with him, so that connection was really useful.
The sharing event at Chapter was really good, because even though it wasn't like a final exhibition, there were a handful of curators there, so that was an opportunity in itself. I mean, nothing concrete has come of those exchanges so far, but it was useful to me as a first step in a process of becoming more involved with contemporary arts in Wales - because I've only moved here two years ago, but everything kind of stopped as a result of the pandemic, even more so here in Wales as opposed to other places it seems.
So, the sharing event has been a useful kind of soft entry into Welsh contemporary arts, it contributed to starting that process for me. I think, perhaps having an actual exhibition might have been a little bit more useful. But the sharing event in itself was a real positive, it was worthwhile and I know that Becca put a lot of work into it too.
>> Follow up question: So what would you say was the biggest benefit of this commission for you?
I’d say the biggest benefit was to be able to just produce work. (NB: as previously covered by Marcy in Question 1).
3. Programme organisation and access:
Q: Was the programme well-run and well managed by the project organisers? (ie DAC and Arts Council Wales). Did you feel that a safe, inclusive and accessible space was appropriately provided for you by the project organisers to explore your practice as an artist? Why or why not?
A: Yes, it’s been really good.
Initially, I felt maybe a little bit of hesitation around whether I should apply to this particular DAC commission in the first place or not. Because on the one hand, my day to day life is quite severely impacted by my neurodivergence, and as I've recently been diagnosed, so that’s a consideration. On the other hand, I am thinking “Do I really want to be classed as a disabled artist?”
From my perspective, I almost felt like there was a choice there, in the Wales in Venice programme, between being part of a cohort of disabled artists (DAC commissions), and a cohort of non disabled artists (Arted Mundi commissions, and fellowships). And I feel like the non disabled cohorts programme had more embedded within it to make professional connections and access more opportunities, maybe. So I was feeling some trepidation around whether I’d want to apply to something like this in the first place. But then, with DAC, the consideration given to the different needs of people like me made it feel like it was really worth it.
And in fact, DAC’s way of working really smoothed over so many of the things that I struggle with a lot normally. I find it very difficult to advocate for myself for my access needs, so it made a huge difference to have those considered and offered by DAC. When I had meetings with Becca, for example, she took notes and sent them to me. I didn't have to ask for that, it was just built in as a default, so I didn't have to think about it. I also need chasing up for things, because I forget - and I find that a lot of the times (especially in British culture) people have a really hard time with chasing, they don’t want to seem pushy. But for me, I need chasing up, it's not rude, it's just what I need. And again, Becca did that for me, and it was really helpful. Yeah, just generally, being able to state access requirements was really helpful. And I don't know how many other people made use of the available funding for additional support, but I did, and from that I was able to have several sessions with somebody providing admin support with me, which was really useful too.
One thing that I was kind of surprised by, as a suggestion for potential improvement, is that DAC were not able to provide me with any kind of contacts or guidance for things like support workers in Wales. From my experience, or colleagues’ experience, of other places in the UK, like the South West of England, I know there are several people who kind of work at the intersection of independent arts producing and disability support. And maybe there's somebody like that in Wales, or maybe there's not, but DAC doesn't know who they are, which is something that I find very surprising. I was able to get somebody like this to help me, but I was hoping to have a Wales based contact specifically, whereas this didn’t happen, I wasn't able to organise Wales based assistance as I’m not familiar with the options here either.
Maybe there's an assumption that you either already have a support worker in place, if you're the kind of person who needs that, or you don't need a support worker?
Anyway, I would say everybody at DAC was always extremely helpful, and very responsive to any questions, it just seemed like maybe this is a question that hadn't come up before. In my situation, I feel like if I take on extra projects, then I need extra help, whereas I don't necessarily need a support worker for other day to day activities.
In the information session for this project, there were definitely some artists who had support workers with them… I don't know, but personally I find it helpful to have extra project support from people who know about both arts and access needs, for particular projects I take on, so this seemed like a gap.
I do really want to emphasise that as far as how the project was run, it felt to me like it was really, really well thought out in terms of embedding access into the programme, the meetings, and everything like that - and that’s a big positive.
And, Becca is great. Personally I think Becca very clearly made herself available outside of like, really probably, her hours and what she should have, in terms of how much she was actually contracted to work - which is not a positive, it’s a point to say that I think perhaps DAC need to be a bit more realistic about how much effort it takes to run a project like this. But I mean, it was good for me, because Becca really gave me such good support throughout, but not good for Becca.
>> Follow up comment from Gaia: I’m really interested in what you said before about your perceived divide between DAC and Artes Mundi cohorts for Wales in Venice, because from speaking with the project organisers that’s not the intention - and I think all the organisations involved (not just DAC) were looking to attract a diverse cohort in terms of disability and neurodivergence. So it’s important to reflect on your feedback, in terms of what commissioned artists may have perceived around this ‘organisational divide’, and how the project organisers can address that in future. I’ll feed this back to them, thank you so much for flagging it.
Well, yes, from my perspective, we did get invited to a couple of the online things that they did, but it didn't really feel like a joined up project overall.
None of the Artes Mundi artist cohort were involved in the sharing event, or anything like that. There was a mention of perhaps there being some kind of gathering or event with all of the artists from all the projects, but that didn't happen.
4. Suggestions for improvement and the future of Wales in Venice:
Context: Part of this evaluation is to help the project organisers think much more widely about their artist commissions and development programmes in the future (not to necessarily replicate the same format as the programme you took part in). One of the aims of Wales in Venice is: “Create an international platform for the visual arts that represents a diverse and forward-looking Wales”.
Q: We are particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on what future developments of Wales in Venice programmes may look like, and how the organisations involved (ACW, DAC, Artes Mundi) should approach working with artists in Wales, as well as international audiences, in the future. With this in mind, do you have any wider insights, questions, or recommendations on this subject that you’d like to reflect on?
A: As a response to the aim you read out (to “Create an international platform for the visual arts that represents a diverse and forward-looking Wales”), to be honest, as I mentioned before too, that didn’t come across at all for me.
I don't think there is an international platform for this project that I just did. And if there is an international platform, it will be one that I've had to completely find by myself. I know DAC will put information on my project on their website, and that’s a good thing to do, but it’s not creating an international platform, that alone doesn't fulfill that criteria.
If they want to create an international platform, then I think it would be really useful as part of the project to have clearer plans/networks in place from the outset. So like, before the project starts, maybe to have some plans about places to exhibit internationally - and then the artists could kind of ‘slotted into’ these, or even doing something along the lines of having international curators engaged with the work, even remotely.
Venice is an international platform, because people from all over go there to see the art. So, in a way, it's really ambitious to try and think of what you can do that's not having an exhibition in Venice, that is some kind of equivalent international platform. That's really challenging, but it would also be awesome - it sounds like a great goal, and I would love to be part of that goal.
Is their idea that they're just gonna keep doing this, instead of having a pavilion?
(Answer from Gaia: I’m not sure myself of specific future plans, but I understand that these are not set in stone, and this is also why I’m asking people about their views on the future - Arts Council Wales have shared with me that they are interested in thoughts and suggestions from project participants, so any feedback from you is welcome).
Right, I see. I do think that something that's really positive about this year’s programme is that, it’s really nice to have a group of artists benefit, instead of there just being one Welsh artist (who perhaps, say, got educated in London and already has gallery representation when they get to go to Venice). I think it's nicer to have a group of artists benefit from this opportunity.
>> Follow up question from Gaia: thank you, that’s great. And then thinking about what you said earlier about the international significance of Venice, you kind of said before it’s ambitious to create equivalent initiatives that can ‘top’ Venice, so have you got any further thoughts about that point, in relation to potential new ways of working for Wales?
Maybe you’re not going to be able to ‘top’ Venice. But rather, thinking about something that has a genuine, kind of international reach?
For me, not only am I now working in Wales, which is a pretty small country, I'm also a 3 hour bus ride away from Cardiff. I'm actually in a position where I have a decent amount of support for making my work, just because I work at the University, and through that job I have access to equipment and laboratory space to make my film work. However, what I don't have access to is arts institutions, basically. I had meetings with the curator of the art centre in Aberystwyth, which is quite a big one for me, but that's just one contact.
What I'm saying is, that help making my work is important, but what I need more of is help exhibiting my work. So as far as what Wales and Venice could provide, I guess, maybe it’s giving more thought to the way that exhibition opportunities can benefit artists in Wales.
>> Follow up question from Gaia: One of the other areas of interest for this project is around how can Wales support and address urgent local and global themes of relevance through the arts (eg. climate emergency, social inequalities, and other contemporary issues) - so I wanted to explore that with you briefly, specifically because I noted in your proposal that as an artist you’re particularly interested in exploring issues that intersect between social justice and politics…
Yes, that’s right - though my project is a very short film, so it doesn't get into depth in these issues. But, the market gardener who is interviewed in the film, she explicitly discusses the relationship between approaches to soil health, and of capitalism and anti capitalism. She kind of connects the way that traditional agriculture treats the soil, to the extractive methods of capitalism and about how in order to rebalance that, instead of exploiting the soil (like capitalism exploits a worker), you have to kind of treat it as a collaborator, and nurture it, taking a non-extractive approach.
So yeah, it did end up directly addressing some of those issues through this commission. And I think it's all things that are especially relevant in Wales, because well, at least my part of Wales, is very much tied up with ideas of agriculture and how you interact with the rural landscape and the natural world.
>> Follow up question from Gaia: So thinking about the socially engaged nature of the work that you do, have you got any insights on how can we kind of connect these like hyperlocal and global themes more, through Wales in Venice or similar arts programmes? Do you have any thoughts about that?
I mean, you know, I've been talking about wanting higher level international arts connections, but I think this is also really worthwhile.
I think in order to allow the work to make those connections, there needs to be ways for audiences to see it and engage with it.
I would love the opportunity, for example, to then help develop more of a programme around this, where there can be talks and walks and workshops, and stuff like that. But in order to do that, well, that takes more investment.
In my original proposal, though the timings didn't work out in practice, I talked about this kind of conference in Scandinavia, that was bringing together scientists, researchers, artists, people in Environmental Humanities…
I guess if you're thinking about the relationship between environmental and social justice and the arts, then it is also worth thinking about: how can we make connections with local and international projects that are outside of the arts? This is also something that's specifically interesting to me.
5. Anything else?
Q: Is there anything else I haven’t asked that you would like to talk about?
A: I just want to emphasise that overall, being a part of this project was really nice and really positive. And I felt very supported.
Because this is an evaluation process, I’ve given suggestions on how things could change, and there’s these few things to think about for next time - but I don't want that to detract from the overall feeling that it was a really good experience.
I'm going to really miss chats with Becca, and I’m hoping that there's going to be a couple more catch ups with the other artists. It’s a really nice group of people, who I really enjoyed spending time with.
(end of interview 6)
